Creator Talks Universe Future, Neil Gaiman

[This story contains major spoilers from season two, Vol. 2 of The Sandman.]

In his final episode of The Sandman, Lord Morpheus (Tom Sturridge) a.k.a. Dream of the Endless, the cosmic being who controls all dreams, delivers an ominous warning to his inner circle: “For the realm to survive, for each one of you to survive, any threat to the Dreaming must be destroyed.”

The most immediate threat to the land of dreams was, of course, none other than the supreme leader himself, whose decision to spill family blood by mercifully killing his only son, Orpheus (Ruairi O’Connor), drew the ire of a trio of goddesses known as the Furies. Adapted largely from The Kindly Ones, the penultimate collection of the creator Neil Gaiman’s Sandman comics, the second volume of the Netflix fantasy drama’s final season explores the consequences of Dream’s actions.

Knowing that there is only so long that he can cheat death at the hands of the Furies (also known as the Kindly Ones), Dream decides to get his affairs in order: He makes his own peace with his emotionally distant parents, Time (Rufus Sewell) and Night (Tanya Moodie); he bids farewell to each of the colorful characters in his palace, as well as his immortal human friend Hob Gadling (Ferdinand Kingsley); and he entrusts the future power of the Dreaming to Daniel Hall, an eight-month-old baby who was conceived in the Dreaming in season one.

When Daniel is kidnapped by Loki (Freddie Fox) and Puck (Jack Gleeson), Daniel’s mother, Lyta (Razane Jammal), mistakenly accuses Dream of kidnapping her child and orders the Furies to end Dream’s life. But by the time she realizes that the Furies had manipulated her into infiltrating and desecrating the Dreaming, Lyta is unable to call off the attack. After unsuccessfully bargaining with the Furies for his life, Morpheus pays the ultimate price. Feeling extreme guilt over how he handled his centuries-old relationship with Orpheus, Dream sacrifices himself to save the Dreaming, ultimately freeing himself from his endless responsibilities.

In his place, Daniel transforms into an adult played by none other than Interview With the Vampire and Game of Thrones star Jacob Anderson in a surprise casting. The final episode of Vol. 2, adapted from Gaiman’s final volume The Wake, finds various recurring characters returning to the Dreaming to attend Morpheus’ funeral — all while Daniel mulls over whether he really wants the responsibility of being the next Dream of the Endless. In the end, armed with the human lessons that he had inherited from his predecessor, Daniel agrees to assume the role and meets the rest of his Endless siblings for the first time.

In a conversation with The Hollywood Reporter earlier this month, series creator Allan Heinberg explained that he had made the creative decision to end The Sandman years before Gaiman, an executive producer of the adaptation, was accused of sexual assault and misconduct by several women. (Gaiman has denied any wrongdoing.) A few weeks later, Heinberg maintains that Gaiman had minimal involvement in the second and final season, but the showrunner is aware of the dark cloud that has loomed over the final, three-part release. (A bonus episode centered around Kirby Howell-Baptiste’s Death will drop on July 31, concluding the total Sandman run at 23 episodes — at least for now.)

“Any impediment to it getting a wider viewership, or having the experience of watching it be skewed by allegations that are merely allegations — that is sad and unfortunate, but also beyond my control,” Heinberg says of viewers who have admitted to boycotting the series due to Gaiman’s involvement. “We just tried to make as beautiful and as moving and as human a show as we possibly could, and I hope that the interest in the show will outlive whatever impact the allegations are having on the viewing public.”

In a wide-ranging chat with THR, Heinberg breaks down the end of Morpheus’ reign, the decision to cast Anderson as his successor, and how that finale lays the groundwork for a possible return to The Sandman universe. Having previously worked as a writer-producer on a trio of Shonda Rhimes-produced ABC dramas (Grey’s Anatomy, Scandal, The Catch), the showrunner, who is now under an overall deal at Warner Bros, also teases his next projects, and whether he has plans to return to Shondaland anytime soon.

***

In Vol. 2, multiple characters point out the fact that Dream wants to be punished for what he did to Orpheus. Can you give more insight into what makes Dream tick in the back half of the season?

Dream realizes he has grievously hurt the people he claims to love. He sees that his own behavior up until that point has been terrible, selfish, manipulative. [He’d thought] he was being honorable and the leading light of all the Endless, and he finds out that, in fact, he’s the bad guy in all these people’s stories. It completely guts him, and contributes to his decision to end this version of his reign and come back as a more human Dream.

Lucienne [Vivienne Acheampong] says there’s only so much that Dream knew he could change, and he couldn’t be the Dream he wanted to be [as] this version of himself; he needed to be reborn as Daniel in order to be more human. In the end, he kills his own son, and I just don’t think he can recover from that. He says to Death, “Ever since I killed my own son, the Dreaming is not what it was to me. I just can’t go through this and do this the way that I’ve been doing it, and there’s nothing left for me here.” He’s just stricken by grief and guilt, and the belief that he’s not the Dream the world deserves at that point.

Dream visits his parents, Night and Time, in a last-ditch effort to call off the Furies and save himself from his inevitable fate. His parents not only decline to help him, but make him doubt whether they loved him at all. How did you think about drawing a stark contrast between Dream’s dynamics with his parents and his dynamic with Orpheus?

Even in episode five, he’s a much more compassionate and loving parent than either of his parents are. He tries to save Orpheus from himself, and Orpheus is so young and in love that he can’t listen to his father’s advice. Dream’s parenting style, in the end, is definitely influenced by his own upbringing. Orpheus chose to disobey him. Dream cannot grant his wish by killing him because he’s forbidden to spill family blood, but he also can’t bear to see his son like that, so he entrusts the care of his son to this order of priests. He does everything he can, but in the end, he’s ashamed he didn’t do more. And finally, he does what I guess any loving father would do by granting his son’s wish.

Time and Night are busy people! They’re definitely based on the characters that Neil created in the comics, and I see both of them struggling to manage the universes and trying to be good parents. But when you’re a parent to everything, and one of your children is acting out or wanting what you don’t know how to give, you don’t have the bandwidth to [help them]. They both say, “How can I help? I’ve got a lot going on right now, but you tell me what you want.”

I think what Dream wanted was an “I love you,” an “I cared about you,” and he finds out that’s just not something either of them is capable of. And he’s not angry. He doesn’t blame either of them, but I think, for [Dream], it was a little bit like, “Oh, no wonder I am this way. No wonder this is how I go through the world.” Dream now sees himself differently, so he sees his parents differently. And instead of trying to impress them or gain their love, he basically says, “I thank you for what you’ve given me, but I gotta go. Clearly, I’m not going to be validated here, and I was wrong to want that.” I feel like maybe his most grown-up moment is seeing that his parents are still children in many ways, and not blaming them, but walking away and saying, “Go in peace. I have grown-up stuff to do. You guys keep carrying on.”

Dream’s insistence on fulfilling his responsibilities at all costs has almost become a running joke in these two seasons. How do you think Dream’s understanding of his duties has evolved over time?

I think he learns compassion and empathy. Human beings who seemed like ants to him from his vantage point — all of them [were] the same, pursuing the same silly goals with a life expectancy of maybe 60-to-70 years. He now knows that each of those lives is too brief and beautiful, and needs to be considered when you make these decisions. Everything he does, every thought he has, every act that is an enactment of his will, affects people in their pursuits. I think he used to make very high-handed decisions that were all about what worked best for him, for his realm, on a macro level. And now, he knows that everything you do on the macro level has seismic repercussions on the micro. He’s gone from someone who had no interest in human beings to someone who feels what they feel very deeply.

In our last conversation, you said that “by the end of the season, [Dream is] so authentically himself with Death at the end. He’s so raw and so naked, and so the opposite of who we met at the beginning of season one.” With that in mind, how did you approach adapting Dream’s death scene?

The scene on the stony cliff is very, very faithful to the original. It’s so iconic and so beautifully written in the comic. I think it was more a question of streamlining it a bit and making sure we were tracking Dream’s thought process, but not in an overly explained way. The moment I was telling you about where he says, “I killed my son, and since then I’m not the same. The Dreaming is not the same” — that’s as explicit as we get. But for me, that was the entire key. Then when he says — which Neil wrote in the comic — “I’m so tired, my sister,” I felt like there wasn’t any ambiguity in trying to follow why he’s giving up. I have him try to fight all along the way, and then the Crone says, “How will you fight us? What will you do? You can do nothing to us.” But in the end, it’s his choice [to die]. Death says, “You’ve been down lower than this before. We can get you out of this.” I think he doesn’t [want to live], because he knows that he’s not enough in this version of himself.

The great tragedy of The Kindly Ones is that Lyta essentially facilitated Dream’s demise. Where do you think we leave her from an emotional standpoint by the end of this story? How does she feel about what she has done?

She’s in an impossible position, because I wanted everybody to understand why she’s doing what she’s doing and that she’s justified in it. In many ways, the Furies are right: Daniel is dead. He’s no longer human. But I felt really badly for her. She’s in a state of pure madness in the comics, and I really wanted her to be used by the Furies in a way that doesn’t make her blameless, but at least we understand how this has transpired. Dream says out loud, “You have been used by others who will have you do their bidding. You’ve been the vehicle for this.”

It was really important for us to make sure that, though Daniel points out the mistake that she’s made, she’s forgiven and she gets to see her son whenever she falls asleep if she wants to. [Daniel] basically says, “Go and live your life,” in a way that doesn’t leave her in ruin, but allows her to start over. There’s a little family there that we established in season one with Rose, Jed, Lyta, Hal and Carl, and she’ll return to that and love and be loved — and maybe find happiness again in a fresh start.

In an unexpected twist, Jacob Anderson, who is no stranger to genre storytelling, plays the new Dream. Why did you decide to cast him, and what kinds of conversations did you have with him about the role?

Jacob’s being available was a miracle because I assumed he was busy with Interview with the Vampire. So once we found out he was available, that was it for me. The challenge was in trying to describe what I was offering him. (Laughs.) Luckily, when we got on that first Zoom, he knew Sandman by heart. He knew who Daniel was. He was a huge fan of season one. I didn’t have to say anything. He was like, “I can’t wait to play this part.”

Part of [what I told him] is, “We don’t want you to do a Tom Sturridge imitation, but Tom Sturridge is in you in a certain way.” It’s an impossible role, and he made it seem easy. It made writing our version of Daniel a pleasure, because there’s nothing that Jacob can’t do. He’s such an extraordinary actor. Especially the scene with Lyta. But all the scenes he has are so challenging, because he’s an eight-month-old. He’s a toddler in a man’s body trying to understand what’s just happened to him, and he pulls it off effortlessly, and in a way that makes us root for him, love him and care about him.

So much of the final episode of Vol. 2 is Daniel trying to get his bearings as an adult and figuring out whether he wants to be bestowed the responsibility of being the next Dream. Where do you think we leave him from an emotional standpoint at the end of the show?

When we made this show, there were a lot of questions about, “Well, could there be a season three? What would it look like if we were through with Dream’s story, and we wanted to tell Daniel’s story?” So we wanted to cast a Daniel whose story we could begin to tell if we were lucky enough to have a season three. I wanted to get him to the point where he was actually nervous to meet the siblings, but [he was] welcomed. As Lucienne says, “You might even enjoy them this time.” Daniel is very different from Dream, and Jacob is a very different actor from Tom. So I think we leave him on a note of hopefulness and excitement. As Destruction says, “If at any point you want to leave, I’ll come get you. We can go on a road trip.” So I hope that people leave feeling excited about the idea of Daniel being the new Dream and hopeful about the future of this family.

You first read The Sandman in college decades ago, and closing the six-year journey of adapting Dream’s story must have been a bittersweet feeling for you. Have you had any conversations with Netflix about expanding The Sandman universe? Is that something you would even want to do at this stage?

I am leaving this job reluctantly. I’ve never had a job where every episode is like a little movie, and you get to write about the most important things in a human life — and not just a human life, but gods’ lives. No comic book property I’ve ever encountered goes as deep or as wide as Sandman. It’s not an inexpensive show to make. And if we had a viewership that really demanded it and it made financial sense for Netflix, I could happily go on writing Sandman forever because you can write about anything. You can tell any kind of story in any genre, and you can do it intelligently, elegantly and passionately. It has been literally a dream job for me, but it was a blessing to be able to bring Dream’s story to a close and then hint at what the future could be if the numbers were there.

So, is the door open for you to revisit this universe at some point down the line with Netflix?

I mean, we have no plan [for more]. But if we had Stranger Things numbers, if we had Wednesday numbers, you can be sure people would be knocking on our doors saying, “OK, we need more!” But The Sandman’s appeal is a bit more limited than those shows. It’s not for everyone. It’s a miracle that they allowed us to make it in the first place, because it is so weird. I mean, Lady Johanna Constantine [Jenna Coleman] falls in love with a disembodied head and ends up spending the rest of her life with him! It’s an odd show. So I feel very lucky to have had these two seasons, and it’s a miracle that it happened.

Last year, Netflix debuted another show in the Sandman universe, Dead Boy Detectives, which was canceled after just one season. Even though you already had plenty of characters to service in support of Dream’s story, did you ever consider incorporating any of the Dead Boy characters into your show?

No. Dead Boys was a show that was developed and shot independently, and then it became part of Netflix. When Netflix took it [from HBO Max], they wanted to make it more integral to the Sandman world, and we did what we could. But because we had already broken our season without any of those characters, it didn’t really make sense to bring them in. So if we had time to write to it, I’m sure we could have done that. But the way that it all timed out made it very, very difficult to bring in the Dead Boys in a meaningful way that worked.

You have maintained that Neil Gaiman had little involvement in the second season, apart from casting the other Endless siblings, and you were already deep into post-production when the sexual assault allegations against him first surfaced. What has it been like for you to launch this final season with the shadow of those allegations lingering in the background? Has it changed at all the way you reflect on the experience of making the show?

It hasn’t changed the show for me, or the experience of the show. I would love for as many people to watch this show as possible. I would love for there to be no impediment of any kind to people having access to this show or wanting to experience this show because of all the beautiful work that went into it by hundreds of people who have loved this property for decades since it came out. So any impediment to it getting a wider viewership, or having the experience of watching it be skewed by allegations that are merely allegations — that is sad and unfortunate, but also beyond my control. We just tried to make as beautiful and as moving and as human a show as we possibly could, and I hope that the interest in the show will outlive whatever impact the allegations are having on the viewing public.

A lot of people don’t know that, shortly before your career as a TV writer took off, you actually co-created the Young Avengers. Have you had any conversations with Marvel about making a live-action adaptation of those comics?

I did have a really lovely meeting right after we wrapped and I got back to Los Angeles. I had a really nice meeting over at Marvel, and we talked about how they make TV and how they’re approaching movies now, and they definitely expressed an interest in a continued collaboration. I’m at Warner Bros for the next several years, which makes working at Disney impossible. So I think any continued comic book stuff will probably stay on the DC side, as long as I’m at Warner Bros. But I’m very happy at Warners. I love DC comics, as you know, and I love James Gunn and Peter Safran and the team that they have there. So I hope that whatever comes next is as much fun and as beautiful as The Sandman has been.

This year also marks the 20th anniversary of Shondaland and Grey’s Anatomy, the production company and the show that really launched your TV career after Young Avengers came out.

I was 10 years into my life here in L.A. and my work as a TV writer when I met Shonda, and I only met Shonda and Betsy Beers, her producing partner, because of my friendship with Krista Vernoff, who was one of the lead writers on Grey’s through seasons one and two. I owe Krista that introduction, which was life-changing for me. Shonda and Betsy are such a force, and Shonda’s voice is so unique and distinct. I think working at Shondaland has definitely changed the way that I do everything — the way I tell stories; the way I cast shows; my relationships with the actors, directors and crew. I joined the Grey’s staff in 2006, then I finished The Catch in 2017. And to have worked on several different shows with those people — it never happens in this business that you have a real family of people that you get to tell stories with for that long. I would go back in a second if it were the right project; I wouldn’t hesitate. I’m indebted to Krista, Shonda and Betsy.

Looking ahead, are you looking to do something more in the genre space, or are you thinking about returning to some of the relationship dramas where you first made your mark as a writer?

I would love to do all of it. I would love to go back and do a sexy romantic comedy, to do more superhero stuff — to do sexy, romantic, superhero stuff. I’m not averse to any of that. We’ll see. I’m excited to have those conversations.

***

The first two seasons of The Sandman are now streaming on Netflix. Read THR’s Part 1 postmortem interviews with Allan Heinberg and star Ruairi O’Connor.